Maya Angelou described Jean Kilbourne’s work as “intelligent probing” of “the issues that beset us all.” Like me, Brené Brown reveals Jean “has changed the way I see the world and myself.”
It is with enormous pride that I share this conversation with pioneering activist and feminist icon, Jean Kilbourne on International Women’s Day.
We chat about:
The progress we have made (from the Supreme Court to USWNT) and the work left to be done
The staggering impact of the pandemic on working women and families
Fatherhood, empathy, and the critical role of men as feminist allies
The upcoming five-year anniversary of #MeToo and the power of telling our individual stories as a collective
Jean’s outlook is an inspiring reminder that each of us can - and must - continue the ongoing, necessary work for equality.
About Jean Kilbourne
A member of the National Women’s Hall of Fame, Jean is internationally recognized for her groundbreaking activism, speaking, filmmaking and writing that encourage all of us to think critically about society’s impact on women - and our own agency in creating change. Learn more at her website.
She was also the inspiration behind my own work with Woke-Washed.
Special thanks to Simone from Magic Dog Productions and Ilana and Jasper from Queer Videography for their collaboration!
HIGHLIGHTS
TRANSCRIPT
Katie Martell (00:25):
Hi Jean.
Jean Kilbourne (00:26):
Hi Katie.
Katie Martell (00:27):
Thank you for being part of this International Women's Day celebration. We are in my beautiful home and I really am so honored to be sitting down with you. I was just hoping to have a chat - it is International Women's Day 2022, and things have gotten a little weird lately. And so we really wanted your perspective on any progress we've made to-date, which I think we've got some wonderful things to celebrate, but where we're being held back a bit and where you think progress could and should be made. Thank you to everyone who's watching, who's tuning into this. And if you have any questions for Jean, drop them in the chat as you're watching this here on LinkedIn, because we are going to follow up with those after the broadcast. So are you ready? I am. Now you have to know something about Jean she's just returned from an international excursion to the Northern lights. And so we appreciate you fighting the jet lag to be part of this today. How was it?
Jean Kilbourne (01:16):
It was incredible. It was wonderful.
Katie Martell (01:20):
And while you were away, I'm sure that you were not knee deep in issues that we're talking about today, but it's honestly a strange moment. I think we should start with some celebrations we've got for the first time in history a black woman being nominated to our Supreme Court. Yay. Yay. But finally, right. What are your thoughts? Tell us, is this something you've been celebrating?
Jean Kilbourne (01:45):
This is incredibly exciting. And I think it's wonderful. I mean, Biden made the promise when he was campaigning and I think it's fabulous that he's doing it and then certainly, he had many qualified candidates to choose from, but I think he's made a great choice with her.
Katie Martell (02:00):
I think he had binders full of women. Right? Is that the phrase? Yeah. Binders, right? Yeah. It's exciting. But it's almost as if, is it too little too late? I can't help but wonder why it's taken so long.
Jean Kilbourne (02:10):
Well, yeah, it has taken a long time, but yeah. And of course, I mean, then there's the whole issue of the Supreme court, but anyway, we have a limited amount of time, but she'll be great.
Katie Martell (02:21):
She will be great. And I think it marks progress it marks progress in a few ways. But what it's really making me think of is we celebrate International Women's Day to mark the achievements of women in society to mark the progress that we've made for women. But with this nomination, it makes me think of intersectional feminism. It makes me think of what we still have to do to make up for what happens when race comes into the picture with equality? What are you seeing what's happening in the world right now? Where do you think we can make up some ground? And where do we have work left to do with intersectional feminism? Not just white women?
Jean Kilbourne (02:55):
Well, I mean this historic nomination is a good start for doing something and getting people fired up. There are so many things we need to do really, and in a way, as you said, why did this take so long? Let's hope that there'll be many more nominations like this, but we do have a long way to go still, but we're much more aware of this than before. And certainly I think the everything that happened after George Floyd and black lives matter and all of that has done a lot to really increase people's awareness of systemic racism and what we need do to combat it at the same time. Of course, there's a huge backlash as there always is. And so all of the states that are trying to make it illegal to talk about race or to talk about privilege or anything like that. So we would expect that that whenever there's a real movement for social change, there's also a backlash from the powers that be that see this as something that will not advantage them.
Katie Martell (04:05):
Right. And I think that conversation about racial justice when it comes to feminism, it's often not considered one in the same, but to your point, the laws that we're seeing coming out against voting rights are targeted at this marginalized community, the most marginalized, not only women, but women of color. And we also know that they are a powerful voting block. I often think that Jean Kilbourne can fix all the world's problems, but I won't make you do that today. But I wanna hear from you, if awareness about the topic hasn't moved the needle, if it's simply talking about it what creates meaningful change?
Jean Kilbourne (04:43):
James Baldwin once said not everything that it faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. So the facing of it is always the first step and, and a really crucial step to be aware of the fact that this is a problem, and that this is something that has been going on for a very long time. So yes, sometimes it can seem like all talk and no action, but there's there isn't gonna be any action until there's enough talk so that enough people are concerned about it and they're willing to do something. And again, there is this incredible backlash against this, not only the voting rights stuff, which is horrible, but also all the things that are going on with education and what teachers are not supposed to say in their classrooms. Friends of mine today were just telling me about this new thing in Florida that you can't use the word gay, you can't talk about trans people in the classroom and there's gonna be monitors in the classroom to make sure that this doesn't happen. And teachers will be fined. I mean, this is, this is Soviet, I mean, this is really crazy to have this, something like this be happening here. Right.
Katie Martell (05:54):
And, and these are populations. These are third grade that they're really targeting. They're really targeting youngsters saying it's inappropriate this and that as if to say that they're not bombarded already with ideas of sexuality or gender in their normal lives as if to say that this specific angle on it is what's being taken away. And that's, to me what's the most offensive about it.
Jean Kilbourne (06:12):
Yeah.
Katie Martell (06:13):
That dialogue has to happen and it has to start young. That's where we build tomorrow's future. I see it happening in Texas. We see a lot of struggles going down for our friends down in Texas, one of which I'm really interested in your point of view on is the abortion laws that are being put in place. We're seeing a sea change in this country. It looks like we're turning back the clock on Roe versus Wade. And for those of us that weren't around in the seventies, when Roe versus Wade became law, it feels as though this is a fight I don't think I expected to have to go through again.
Jean Kilbourne (06:48):
Right. Yeah.
Katie Martell (06:49):
What is your take on what's happening?
Jean Kilbourne (06:51):
Well I was around long before Roe and accompanied one friend to an illegal abortion that was God awful. The mistake that people make is thinking that this is going to mean that women won't get abortions. It doesn't mean that it means that women won't get legal and safe abortions. And so women will be at tremendous risk including for those women who are then forced to continue a pregnancy - pregnancy has its own set of risks. So it's not as if this is making women safer in some way, although that's the ridiculous sort of line that we sometimes hear it doesn't at all. What it does is it just guarantees that more women will suffer more, more children will suffer, more unwanted children will be born, which is never a good thing.
Jean Kilbourne (07:37):
And I was struck by this the truckers convoy in Canada and all of that, which I know is coming to our country and the signs that people were holding. This was anti-vax stuff. And the signs saying "my body, my choice." I just wanted to say to them, yeah and do you feel this way also about women and our right to control our own bodies? Of course they don't. So it's the same group that's saying I'm not gonna have a vaccination because it's my body. They would deny the right for women to have the most elemental right about, are you gonna have a child or not? It's a huge setback. But I also think that I do think Roe V Wade will be overturned by this extraordinarily extreme right Supreme court. And that I think might sort of wake people up in a way that that could end up being helpful in terms of a right that everyone's taken for granted, like in your case, your whole life now taken away that might really stir up some some protests, at least I certainly hope it does.
Jean Kilbourne (08:39):
The other thing that could make a huge difference would be telemedicine and having the pill, abortion pill be available. I mean, that could really go a long way towards solving the problem.
Katie Martell (08:51):
We also don't exactly have a country or a workplace culture that supports working families, or that supports children. And to me, there's one or the other, if you're gonna restrict abortion, fine, have something in place to support the child and the family. Tell me about your take on how this country and specifically companies, because today is a day that a lot of corporations, "celebrate" International Women's Day. And a lot of them could do a lot better when it comes to supporting the women who overwhelmingly have been responsible for childcare over the pandemic and working families in general, not just children, but elder care any kind of family care situation. A lot of them I think could do a lot more to address the realities of women or anyone taking care of a child or an elderly person. Tell us about that. What does the country have to do? You mentioned Build Back Better earlier to support working families, but also companies if any are listening today, what can they do to better support?
Jean Kilbourne (09:48):
Ideally with the government there would be the kind of thing that Biden has been trying to do with Build Back Better. I just got back from Norway and I think they have at least a year, maybe two of paid maternity leave plus a year of paid paternity leave - what an incredible difference that could make. And, and of course we have nothing remotely like that, so we do leave it up to individual companies and corporations. Ideally we'd have a government policy that would guarantee that for people, but since we don't, then it is up to corporations and companies to step up and to guarantee it to their own employees. And I'm a strong proponent of paternity leave as well, because I think it it's very important for men to be involved, if a man is involved in the whole situation, to be involved with also raising and taking care of a child because you, for lots of reasons, I mean, among others, I think that if you've been really intimately involved with the work that it takes to raise a human being to adult, it's gonna be more difficult to press a button and blow people away.
Katie Martell (11:08):
So you think having more paternity leave, more men more involved would create some empathy.
Jean Kilbourne (11:12):
I think so. I think it would. And I think it might make people a little more hesitant to send people off to die in wars.
Katie Martell (11:21):
Paternity leave is a secret to solving world peace.
Jean Kilbourne (11:24):
It's certainly something that's important, I think, and certainly very important for women to be able to take time off right?
Katie Martell (11:31):
Right. And that's the thing, we know anecdotally that women have taken time off of work during the pandemic - they're much more likely to have taken some time to take care of childcare again, or anybody else at home that needs taking care of. And they're much more likely than men to have stepped back in their career, the predictions for women for the setbacks on their career momentum because of the pandemic is enormous. I have some stats I'd love to read to you... As of January 2022, and we're shooting this again right before International Women's Day in March. So this is relevant recent data. There were 27 times more men than women who joined the labor force. Men have completely recouped their pandemic employment losses. While 1.1 million fewer women are participating in the labor force than February 2020 when the pandemic kicked off. The pandemic is hitting women harder than men - much harder. And I think that's not a narrative that I've seen emphasized, and I think needs to be one of our headlines here on International Women's Day. This is going to set women back. The momentum you lose in that career is gonna prevent you from reentering the workforce at the same rate as men it's going to result in unequal pay down the line. How else do you see the setback affecting working women?
Jean Kilbourne (12:44):
Well, I think it's been incredibly difficult for women. Many women of course, have been struggling to work from home and to take care of their children and to supervise their children being in school, on Zoom. Friends I know who are in that situation are exhausted and as we women tend to feel anyway, feel like we're failing at everything, we're not doing enough for our jobs, we're not doing enough for our children. That just sort of seems to come with the territory, but the pandemic has certainly made it much, much worse. And I've also thought a lot about, you know, there are so many women who are in relationships where they are in danger really. To be cooped up and at home with somebody who's volatile and perhaps violent is also a very scary thing, right? To not have the ability to go out into the world at least to get some time off during the day and that sort of thing.
Katie Martell (13:40):
I'm so glad you brought this up domestic violence over the pandemic is an enormous issue. Often also swept under the rug. I think this is, this is the general theme that we see women's issues seem to be put in a corner. They only are brought up on International Women's Day or maybe women's history month. And the rest of the year are somewhat forgotten or at least lost to other Zeitgeists. The question I have, and it's kind of a million dollar question - how do we keep women's issues at the forefront? Because women's issues are everybody's issues. Women are the center of the economic power in the US and around the world in terms of who controls the purse strings. We are at the center of families. We are at the center of communities. It's not a marginalized segment. And yet it's treated as though it is right. And you've somebody who has been talking about women's issues across media, across advertising, across our communities for decades. Now, how do we keep things at the forefront?
Jean Kilbourne (14:36):
First of all, what you said earlier is about how they're not is really true. And it was very telling to me that with the whole Build Back Better thing that was split into those two bills and that the infrastructure bill did pass with somewhat bi-partisan support. And that really is a bill that's about bridges and construction. And I mean, all very important, but mostly affects men in terms of the jobs and that sort of thing. Whereas all of the things that were really gonna be beneficial to women, the childcare and the elder care and all sorts of other things, that's been deemed not so important and it's not gonna happen. And so it just breaks my heart because it would've made such a huge difference to women to have that, that part of it pass. So in terms of getting it out there, I mean, just more and more stuff like this, more people talking, the more women getting into positions of power and are able to talk about it. All of the talk there's gonna be about Biden, the Supreme court nomination, and all of that is going to be very important in terms of getting people to sort of think about this a little bit more. So we just have to keep, keep on, keep on plugging. It's hard, but I've been doing this for 50 years. So things are better than they were then!
Katie Martell (15:50):
The slow march of progress, right? Yeah. I mean, they call them waves for a reason, the waves of feminism, right. They move forward, but then there's a little bit backwards, but hopefully eventually the tide does move in or out, depending on the direction you're seeking.
Jean Kilbourne (16:03):
There's been so many wonderful books written about feminism, but Susan Faludi's Backlash is one of the best really, because she really analyzes exactly why there's such terror of women becoming more powerful. And the fear that men have, that this is gonna mean that they're gonna be diminished in some way and all of that. And so the, in a way, the strength of the resistance shows us that what we're proposing really is something that really would change the world. Now, of course, in my belief, it would change the world for the better for men as well as for women. But I can understand why some men who've been in positions of power and benefiting from male privilege forever would be worried that they're somehow going lose out in this change.
Katie Martell (16:49):
What's the quote, when all you're used to is privilege, equality feels like oppression. I'd love to talk about men for a moment. I think there's, you mentioned this idea of being constricted, right by ideas of gender. To me, there's an opportunity for men and women to benefit from a conversation about why our gender roles are so baked, defined. I love this idea that men and women and people that identify outside and in-between our dichotomy of two genders. They are liberated if we stop looking at these roles, these societally-defined roles of gender as so defined, tell me about your thoughts there. I think we're having a national conversation about yes, trans rights in the political sphere. We're seeing a ton of scapegoating happening targeting our most marginalized communities, not only trans people, trans children.
Katie Martell (17:44):
The most, most, most marginalized, scapegoated, used as a political tool, a political prop, and completely distracting from what really the movement, if there is one, is calling for, which is just very basic safety, equality, access to safe working conditions and equality in society. This is a conversation that I think is part of International Women's Day, because it asks us to rethink what we think a woman is and what it means to be a woman. My take on it is that we are all liberated when we stop trying to assign ourselves these roles. What's your take on this?
Jean Kilbourne (18:24):
I agree. Of course and that also, we're certainly liberated when we're free to be uniquely who we are, and not feel like we have to be assigned any label in particular. That just seems to me incredibly important, but that's also incredibly threatening to a whole lot of people, right. So we're seeing a huge backlash in that regard too.
Katie Martell (18:46):
That threatening, I mean, we're seeing it being played up in all kinds of narratives that it is a threatening scenario. I would love to see more trans-affirming narratives in this world. More discussions around gender being something that does elevate everybody's conversation about themselves. If we're all free from the gender binary, then nobody's constricted by it. The whole conversation becomes less about either or, and become more about who we are outside of these definitions. I hope that the conversation around women's rights elevates and evolves into a space that really asks everybody to question gender. But I know that it's a very fundamentally personal issue. We're taught from birth pink and blue...
Jean Kilbourne (19:28):
In utero to say, I mean, literally the gender reveal stuff, I mean, that's just so horrifying.
Katie Martell (19:34):
Okay. But when they catch on fire, it's kind of fun to watch.
Jean Kilbourne (19:36):
Yeah, it's awful. But the whole idea that it used to be, at least there was a little bit of a respite, you wouldn't have your pink nursery all ready to go because you wouldn't know, but now the stereotyping starts literally in utero and people have got this, the blue nursery or the pink nursery all set to go. And I know you're aware of the studies that have been done with the same infant being shown to two different groups of people, one group being told this is a boy. And they say, oh, he's so tough. What a fighter, and the same infant, this is a girl, so sweet... anyway, it just starts so early.
Katie Martell (20:14):
It really does. It really does. I'm interested in your take on again, how we evolve the conversation. I think media has a lot to do with these just dichotomies that we live in, any definitions, obviously of who we are, as you said for years, is defined by what we see. So what can media do? And when I say media, I mean, TV as well as advertising. How can the media and media that we consume better represents women and people of any gender or outside any kind of binary to help this conversation evolve.
Jean Kilbourne (20:45):
Well, as you know so well, I mean, a lot of these companies, etc, will jump on the bandwagon and they'll pretend to be concerned about these issues. And they'll do all the kind of advertising that you talk about so brilliantly, I must say, but then there are some, I think where there's a little bit more sincerity in what they will try to do. Most corporations are, and advertisers in particular aren't known for their courage, they're going to test the waters, they have to be very careful that they're not going to alienate huge groups. So we'll have to see how that plays out.
Katie Martell (21:20):
Are there any tropes that you see right now happening in media, really television, movies, that you think you're surprised or still around and, or you'd like to see just... go away
Jean Kilbourne (21:30):
Go away. I'm sure there are, but I'm sort of drawing a blank, but what about you?
Katie Martell (21:35):
I'm putting you on the spot here. I think that when it comes to International Women's Day, we're gonna see a lot of femvertising. We're gonna see a lot of ads that claim to celebrate women or campaigns from companies that, again, Amazon, for example, if you go to Amazon right now, they'll show you women owned shops. Great. Guess what was last month? Black owned shops. No other time during the year. And so for me, it's this, it's this aggressive calling out to me, it's this othering that happens based on the minority of the month. And I wonder how these companies think about people in their own lives as they create these campaigns as create these calendar-based approaches, almost thinking who exactly you are you marketing to? Don't you have women in your life and are they nothing more than a segment to you? Are they nothing more than a target audience to you?
Jean Kilbourne (22:24):
And don't women still make most of the purchases? I mean, so it seems a little counterproductive to not be more aware of that.
Katie Martell (22:33):
And we celebrate just the representation as if that's enough as if having more women on Amazon.com, sending a little bit more of our money to women-owned shops is going to create the sea change that is so sorely needed. I think this incremental kind of celebration of incremental progress is almost as insidious as doing nothing at all.
Jean Kilbourne (22:53):
Well, I know certainly a lot of people, a lot of my black friends feel that way about black history month and that kind of thing as sort of, don't even wanna participate.
Katie Martell (23:01):
I'm just ranting at this point. This is just me being on a soapbox, but can we celebrate one thing? US national soccer team. Finally. Getting some recognition for, and if you haven't been following the story the US women's national soccer team finally got an equal pay settlement. They had been, which essentially proved they had been systematically unpaid for years compared to their male counterparts. We've gotten back payments, I think of some 28 million or some crazy amount of money showing the gap in that pay. It's being heralded as a moment kind of a watershed moment for the fight for equal pay. What are your thoughts on what's happening with US Women's national soccer? Does it mean that we're in a different place when it comes to equal pay?
Jean Kilbourne (23:43):
Maybe not, but it's a very important step, I think for one thing it's so it's, so it makes so obvious the disparity, the fact that this has been going on for so long and that, and how crazy it is. I mean, why would the men's soccer be getting so much more than it makes no sense? So I think anything like that, that gets a lot of publicity, a lot of attention that gets people thinking about this. That's all good, and maybe with soccer, I mean, it's something that would draw people's attention more perhaps than some other place where there would be equal pay. So I think that's all good.
Katie Martell (24:19):
We should celebrate it. We should celebrate it.
Jean Kilbourne (24:21):
We should celebrate. We should celebrate every, every little bit of progress.
Katie Martell (24:27):
We'll take it where we can get it at this point. Yeah. And what kills me though, is the inequality, not only in pay, but in winning - in success! Four world cup titles, four Olympic gold medals, six straight years ranked FIFA's number one and now they're getting back pay. Yeah. It's an admission that the compensation was just offensively off, and it's taken years for this matter to be resolved. And to your point, it's high profile, a lot of support. This is still happening at companies across the world, but especially here in the US where women are still systematically underpaid, and again, with intersectionality women of color, Latina women, forget it. Forget the 80 cents to a dollar we're down in the 60 to 40 cents to every white male dollar being paid.
Jean Kilbourne (25:09):
Right. It's about, and that's been the case for a long, long time. Yeah. I mean, it goes up like a penny or something. I mean, it's just completely, completely crazy.
Katie Martell (25:19):
I feel like I ask you this question a lot when we get a chance to chat, which I'm very honored to be able to do, how can we make more progress faster? This feels like a slow moving grind when there's so much momentum that I feel in the people I talk to, in your work, there's so much movement towards progress. We're still however, facing so many roadblocks.
Jean Kilbourne (25:44):
So many things. I mean, we need to get way more women into office politically, and I understand why who would want to? I mean, really what a thankless sort of job? But we really do need that and we need just much, much better representation. So certainly on the Supreme court, I mean, we're beginning to, that's good, we're making some progress there. More, more women in the house, more female senators, more, all of that is just really important. It was wonderful to see Biden give his state of the union address and have two women behind him for the first time in history. That was progress, and it matters because, I mean, not all women in politics, obviously there are some that are horrendous as we know and have seen recently.
Jean Kilbourne (26:32):
But but mostly if they're women who are caring about public policy and about the kinds of things that will affect children and families, then we just need way more representation. So that's one thing. I've been arguing for decades to teach media literacy in the schools, teach everybody how to be critical viewers of not just of advertising, but of the media in general. A media literate public wouldn't stand for the kind of political advertising that we have, so that's very important. We also need desperately honest age-appropriate sex education starting in kindergarten. We're the only developed nation in the world that doesn't do this. And that would be teaching not just about sex, but also about relationships, how to have a healthy relationship, how to deal with conflict, all sorts of things that, again, these are taught in schools around the world in other countries, but certainly not here. And now there's tremendous resistance against any of that too, even more than before, but that could make a very, very big difference. Imagine if we learned very young about boundaries and about dating violence. If girls were encouraged to have sexual agency themselves, that that would be, that could be a real game changer.
Katie Martell (27:52):
Revolutionary, revolutionary. It would be revolutionary.
Jean Kilbourne (27:54):
It would be revolutionary.
Katie Martell (27:55):
I fully believe more agency in the hands of women is a powerful thing. The world around us tells us we don't have any. It tells us we're not allowed to. And I think it's almost a revolution from within when you can find it, but to your point, imagine the sea change that would happen if that was just standard.
Jean Kilbourne (28:13):
Right.
Katie Martell (28:14):
And the world, according to Jean Kilbourne, I'm ready for it. I've been ready for it for years. I want it always. What else is on your mind here on International Women's Day? What are you looking at and watching these days, what are you tracking as far as, again, this struggle that you've been talking about for a very long time?
Jean Kilbourne (28:31):
I feel like we're really at a crossroads, because there has been progress. I mean, I was really so heartened by the summer before last, by all those marches and the protests and everything after George Floyd. I mean, that was just, it was so moving to me. I mean, to have like thousands of people in a small town in Alabama go out and march. I mean, that was incredible. And of course now there's there's been all this backlash against it, but it showed me that people can rally for social justice, if they're encouraged to do so. I think we've all been inspired by what the Ukrainians are doing. I feel like our democracy is at tremendous risk right now. I mean, certainly much more than at any other time in my lifetime and maybe in our history or certainly since the civil war, but I think that what's happening with the Ukrainians is something that's can be very inspiring to us that if they're putting their lives on the line for this, I mean, the least we can do is fight for voting rights and fight to do everything we can in our power to preserve our democracy.
Katie Martell (29:39):
I'm so glad you brought this up. I think that we have a lot of younger viewers that will be seeing this. I just turned 35. I'm celebrating my mid thirties. Now we're also having a birthday celebration this weekend, a lot to celebrate this time of year. But for me, I'm entering that point now where I see a lot of much younger women both in the workforce, and just in my personal life that don't have the same context, even not just a decade younger. And I'm so happy that you brought this up because I feel like it's a moment of recognition that there is a fight that has to happen, that it's up to us to continue this fight. It's not a history book that we read. Feminism is not something that has ended. The struggle for womens rights is not over despite what you might see in advertising all over today.
Jean Kilbourne (30:26):
Right.
Katie Martell (30:26):
We have to continue to take up the mantle. And every generation has a new set of channels, a new set of tactics to do it, but some things really never change. So I see this as an amazing opportunity to learn from somebody who's been in this struggle for decades. To speak directly to folks that are just realizing, oh, it's up to me, isn't it. What's your advice for those that see the state of our democracy, the state of women, and are angry about it that have that seed of something that's going to start to make them want to take action. What's your advice?
Jean Kilbourne (30:58):
Probably the first thing that comes to my mind is support other women and, and create support groups with other women. I mean, if you're gonna take on a challenge like this, you really are gonna need a lot of support. And I know in my life what's made a huge difference to me has been my friendships with other women and also being in groups in the old days and consciousness raising groups. But I mean, just feeling so not so alone, and when I started going out on the road and speaking, I was terrified, because I was speaking to, I was terrified of speaking for starters, but also speaking about sexism to large groups of people. And there was some hostility, but having having the support of women in my life was just incredibly important. So I guess I would urge young women to do that. My daughter is 34, so very similar to you, and I know that for her also her friendships are, she's obviously a feminist activist. I mean, how could she not be?
Katie Martell (31:59):
I would hope so!
Jean Kilbourne (31:59):
And her friendships are incredibly important to her and they also provide sort of refuge and solace when you're out there in the world, taking on forces that are often very difficult and challenging.
Katie Martell (32:11):
I have two questions now, first is what's a consciousness. What did you call it?
Jean Kilbourne (32:14):
Consciousness raising...
Katie Martell (32:15):
That sounds like a fun party?
Jean Kilbourne (32:18):
Yeah, it was. You really don't know?
Katie Martell (32:20):
I really don't know. And if I should forgive me...
Jean Kilbourne (32:22):
No, that's fine. No, everybody should, but, why would you? So in the second wave of feminism, we got together in groups and started talking about things like domestic violence and sexual abuse and also other things like the pressure to look a certain way and how that felt and just what it did was it made us... the thing about the way it used to be is that we all felt it was just us. If we were alone, if we grew up in a family where there was violence, we figured we were the only ones. If we were sexually abused as children, as one in four of us is, we had no idea that it was one in four. We thought it was just us and therefore must be our fault. So to be in a group of other women and to be talking about this and realize that we're not alone and that this is an experience that women have in common. That just bolsters you in a way that makes it possible to first of all, get over the kind of shame and isolation, but also feel like, oh my God, if this is shared by everybody in this circle or almost everybody, then this is a systemic problem. And we really need to work to change the culture and the society.
Katie Martell (33:40):
Women's voices have been silenced historically for that exact reason. We are celebrating the five - I shouldn't say celebrating. We are marking the five year anniversary this fall of #metoo. Individual stories coming together to demonstrate as if we need proof that this was a systemic issue. I'm so happy you brought this up. I'm so happy you made that point. This is a call to action to share your story and to find community. But it's not just women. This is a men's issue as well. Feminism is a men's issue as well. This is not something that we can do without allies.
Jean Kilbourne (34:12):
Right. Without allies. There was a saying also in the early in the second wave of feminism, early on that the woman who needs the most liberating is the woman in every man. And I've always thought that there, there was something to that. I mean, the fact that men are socialized in this culture to be so, to suppress their emotions and to be afraid of being vulnerable and all of that. And the truth is if you can't be vulnerable, you can't have an intimate relationship and that's an incredibly high price to pay, to not be able to really have an intimate relationship. So I think a lot of men are realizing that. And I certainly see with my daughter's friends, male friends, that they're very different from the the young menI grew up with..
Jean Kilbourne (35:02):
They're more vulnerable, they're more open to being expressive and that sort of thing. I grew up with some wonderful young men and I have three brothers, but what I saw was the kind of pressure on them to conform to this very narrow definition of what it means to be a man. And my youngest brother, who I lost a few years ago, was gay. And so I also saw what he experienced as a gay man at a time when you really could not be out. I saw a lot with my brothers which was a good thing because I probably could have ended up much more angry at men than I would've been otherwise. It gave me some more, more empathy and more compassion. Sure.
Katie Martell (35:50):
Yeah. Well, I think the point here is that if men realize that fixing, I shouldn't say fixing, changing a society that also constricts them is what feminism is asking. That is what the movement is calling for. Feminism is not about women's liberation. It's about a society that's more equal for everybody.
Jean Kilbourne (36:10):
Right. And about making systemic changes in that society. So it, isn't just about a few women having the opportunity to be CEOs or that sort of thing. It's rather about extraordinarily systemic, basic changes in the society. And as you brought up earlier the intersectionality of it all as well, nobody's free unless we're all free.
Katie Martell (36:33):
That's my list of questions. Is there anything I have not asked you about today that's on your mind here on International Women's Day 2022?
Jean Kilbourne (36:41):
So much is on my mind. Mainly I hope people won't be too disheartened by the backlash because the backlash indicates that we're making progress and that we are that we're a force to be reckoned with. And it is disheartening and it is difficult, but we have a good shot now at least at being able to prevail, maybe, if we all get involved and sort of work as hard as we can and in whatever way moves us, I mean, there's so many different ways that we can make a difference in the world. Some of us choose to go out and speak in public and that sort of thing, others raise boys in a very different way than they ordinarily would be raised. There are so many ways to contribute to the change that's necessary.
Katie Martell (37:25):
And it all, all matters. Every little bit of it,
Jean Kilbourne (37:27):
Every bit of it matters.
Katie Martell (37:28):
I'm so thankful that we've had a chance to just tap into what you, what you see around International Women's Day this year, but in general, thank you. Thank you for the work you've done over the past few decades. And hey Jean, we are taking up the mantle in your name, my friend. It's an ongoing struggle, but I am taking your optimism with me as we go through this. And I think hopefully all of us do.
Jean Kilbourne (37:49):
Thank you. It's always great to be with you.
Katie Martell (37:51):
Always a pleasure! Everyone, thank you so much for joining us. If you don't know, Jean Kilbourne shame on you, Google her immediately and watch every single film and read every book she's ever written. And you'll just be getting started in the radicalization of equality, but also optimism and everything she writes is hilarious. So really you should check it out.
Jean Kilbourne (38:09):
Thanks.
Katie Martell (38:10):
Thank you so much, Jean, for being here, really.
Jean Kilbourne (38:12):
Thank you.